Comments on: Audit of Metro Trolley Bus Audit

By: gwerner

gwerner — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

I do not understand something. Metro only uses the hybrid capabilities in the tunnel. So are they going to start running on electricity downtown with the hybrids? or what?

By: joshuadf

joshuadf — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Who did the audit?

By: serial catowner

serial catowner — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Considering that a hybrid bus is an electric bus that also has a diesel engine, generator, and batteries, it’s hard to see how that could be cheaper than the straight electric. In fact, it’s totally unbelievable.

The same thing goes for the engine overhaul. The electric motors on a hybrid should last abut as long as on a straight electric (unless you’re simply not using them) and in addition, you have the diesel engine to maintain. What they’re doing here is an apple-to-oranges comparison of “number of overhauls” when the real question would be the costs of the maintenance per mile, or service hour.

It does make you wonder if any f the “real reporters” in this town bothered to look under the covers here. It didn’t take Matt long to find some very questionable stuff.

By: mSkehan

mSkehan — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Could you post the 2 page spreadsheet file? or just email it to me at lummiwater@msn.com.
I find the results implausible at best. Electric motors last a very long time indeed. The new gillig ETB’s used the old motors from the 20 year old 900’s for that very reason.
The Breda 20 year old electric motors are still doing just fine. Sure, they need cleaning, bearings and re-dipping from time to time, and maybe a rewind, but they just keep going, and going, and ….
If Metro really wants to ‘get rid of the ETB’s’, and fed the auditors trumped up data, then maybe an independant investigation of the audit is needed.

By: Matt the Engineer

Matt the Engineer — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

King County auditors hired a few firms for the analysis. Booz Allen Hamilton did most of the ETB analysis, and Nelson Nygaard ran the scheduling analysis.

By: Matt the Engineer

Matt the Engineer — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

I’ve forwarded on all of my correspondence to date. I’d love to get an insider’s opinion.

By: mSkehan

mSkehan — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

TO UPDATE: More BS to the flexability issue. Sure the trollies have to generally run in single file, on a fixed wire route, but don’t use the handicapped as a scapegoat for replacing ETB’s with diesels. Low floor, kneeling buses are more efficient for loading/unloading. Get ‘em next time.
Passing wire is pretty cheap. I used to encourage my 3rd Ave wheelchair riders to let me know before 3/Univ so I could use the siding, letting others go around. Battery packs could allow the trailing trollies just enough power to go around stuck buses, using the old Breda style automatic re-wiring pans to keep the driver from having to go off the bus at certain locations.
In short, the current system is not the only way of doing things.

By: serial catowner

serial catowner — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

This is all starting to look mighty fishy. Really appreciate what Matt is doing here, going directly to the sources.

Seems that for operational costs they’re looking at the worst buses in the system, but for replacement costs they’re looking at what would be the best buses in the system.

It would be interesting to know what the costs were, in a recent fleet purchase of the best ETBs available, by some city. I’m thinking these would probably have some battery capability and be low-floor, in keeping with other modern buses.

By: mSkehan

mSkehan — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

See what you’ve started. IF the council is foolish enough to accept the auditors ETB results, and allow Metro to program them for elimination, think of all the scrutiny on ETB v. Hybrid comparisions would come out of the woodwork. Messy!

By: Bernie

Bernie — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Man/Neoplan Electroliner:

http://www.neoplan.de/datapool/mediapool800/Electroliner_engl.pdf

Boston is using dual mode buses on their Silver Line. MAN made them for Boston about five years ago (I thought Seattle had some of these back in the old “bus tunnel” days but I seem to be the only person in the world that thinks so.). New Flyer also does dual mode buses if the route flexibility is really important.

The only advantage I see to the hybrids is regenerative braking. They’re really not a full hybrid like a Prius where the electric motors asist the fossil fuel engine when more power is required. When they were forced out of the tunnel during construction of Link Metro paid to have HUSH mode disabled. Although I still can’t understand why it wouldn’t be desirable in stop and go rush hour traffic on the surface. They do have a first rate emisions system but that’s not specific to it being a hybrid. In fact all new diesel buses should have it.